It's evolution bay-bee

[gemfyre]

I don't get all these religious types who believe that God negates evolution.

I just watched yet another show on evolution and crikey, it just makes me believe in a God even more. All that utter brilliance and chance and simplicity and complexity and adaptation and everything all rolled into one. I mean, how could you look at all that and NOT believe in a God??

*smiles to herself*

Comments

[terrycat.livejournal.com]

case in point.... *points at Morninglords rant*
So many pseudo-scientists refuse to believe in god, because the bible (written by men, then translated for several thousand years) is inaccurate. of course it's inaccurate. so? many dont believe in god because science is provable (well duh. thats what science IS) just because evolution is real, doesnt mean that god is dead, nietze(sp?) ignored. Science and faith are not mutually exclusive. I believe more in a god because of the beauty of the brain, and the amazing steps that lead to it, than before i learnt science. As someone once said "A miracle is something that happens when needed. Is it any less a miracle if it can be explained?"

[morninglord.livejournal.com]

i wasnt arguing anything, just stating my opinion.
I firmly believe in not arguing the existence of god, because an arguement is something that happens when two people are willing to be led by the other persons point of view. A believer cant do that. EVER. Thats sacriligious. Its against god.
Its such a lovely little mind fuck, religion. Such a wonderful little memonic virus spreading throughout the brains of thousands of people, and it hides itself behind one of the strongest forces in the human brain, which is that of guilt.
I view people who believe in a god as victims of something they really cant do anything about. I like em, and are friends with them and still think theyre human.
But theyre victims, none the less.
Its why I find it so funny that people think IM the victim, cos Im not susceptible to this particular memonic virus.
Cos the important thing is that while im not a believe, im willing to be convinced if you can argue your case successfully. Just nobody ever managed to do that.
And i mean, hell, if im wrong, and I end up in front of god and he chucks me in the pit of hell or whatever, then what the hell, he wasnt worth it anyway. Im living a good life as a good person the way I see it. I dont think I should have to believe in a god just to live it the "right" way.

[firvulag.livejournal.com]

Hrm, I so totally disagree with believers not being alowed to argue stuff.
I'm a believer.
I question everything all the time.
I fuck with people's minds all the time.
Not usually a reason for it, i just like doing it.
S'pose i'm just like Loki from Dogma :)

[morninglord.livejournal.com]

allow me to amend that statement.
I didnt mean they couldnt argue stuff. I meant they arent SUPPOSED to argue wether or not god actually "EXISTS". They can only be on the side of exists. Theres no middle ground.
That makes them all, to a greater or lesser degree, fanatics. And impossible to argue with about the existence of their god.
On other points, they can argue all they like. The memonic virus doesnt mind that.

[firvulag.livejournal.com]

And I'm yet to meet an athiest that will argue on the side that god does exist, so whats your point? Atheism is a religion? well duh!

[confetti-1.livejournal.com]

That make no frickin' sense. You *don't* believe. Of *course* you're going to be on the un-believing side. dumass.

[terrycat.livejournal.com]

"which is that of guilt." not true. Guilt is a part of religious control, not religion. Hey, i believe in god from my choice, not cause im afraid of hell. if it exists, Im probably going there anyway, so whether i worship or not doesnt matter. but i accept that i cant prove or disprove he exists, so i choose to believe.
And seriously, stop assuming you're superior. just because you believe in the religion of science instead of god., you are any less of a victim of the deep neurological virii.

[morninglord.livejournal.com]

oi, when did i say i was superior?
isnt that your offended principles swinging into action and demanding you whack me down for the attempted attack on your side?
oh and im agnostic, as i said. not atheist. what you say about atheism is true, which is why i prefer to sit on the fence.

[firvulag.livejournal.com]

he didnt say you said you were superior, he said you were acting superior.
difference, and you are acting that way.
Unless your right (and you claim not to have decided, so you cant be right cos its one or the other) so you can't be right, therefore not superior.

so stop acting like you are :Þ

[sassamifrass.livejournal.com]

Quote 1: oi, when did i say i was superior?

Quote 2: I view people who believe in a god as victims of something they really cant do anything about. I like em, and are friends with them and still think theyre human.
But theyre victims, none the less.

Nya again :P

Hm

[peppermintrose.livejournal.com]

Don't usually stick my nose in, but this conversation caught me before I've had my daily calming dose of sugar. I don't think morninglord was ranting at all. In fact, he brings up some interesting points just when I thought I'd heard it all on both sides of the god issue. Yes, I'm an atheist and yes I think the Bible is a bunch of stories we just can't seem to make ourselves let go of yet. No one wants to think we're just a part of nature, everyone wants a chance at "heaven" (which if you really read the bible is near impossible to achieve anyway), and while they're spending time worshiping they're ignoring the fact that they need to make their own heaven on earth for themselves and for others. This is our one life, our one real chance to be happy and make a difference. Don't waste it. Don't live it for a supposed afterlife! *firm nod and wanders back to her own journal*

[morninglord.livejournal.com]

I prefer to think of myself as Agnostic rather than Atheist.
Although I'm not sure about that...

LOL

[peppermintrose.livejournal.com]

You Agnostics ;) Well, the important thing here is that you learn to think for yourself, and make your own decisions instead of blindly falling into whatever the general populace or your family believes, etc. You definately don't seem like a blind follower. I don't mind my religious friends, I just worry about them.

[morninglord.livejournal.com]

Im only an agnostic because
1). its funny
and 2). its the true scientific principle of never formulating an opinion on something until you have proof either way.
I gotta be agnostic, or i cant truly be of an atheist mindset.
Cos there AINT no proof either way, and neither will there ever be.

All true scientists are agnostic :)

Re: LOL

[firvulag.livejournal.com]

I think that should be more You! Agnostic? Never! with everything else he's writing. He thinks he hasn't buttered his bread, but he's just not looking at the bread to see!

Re: Hm

[firvulag.livejournal.com]

I'm quite willing to say were part of nature.
isn't everything part of nature?
I think the point gemfyre is making is that with the way evolution works, it's so complex and intricate, it seems more likely that there is a higher power behind at least setting it all in motion than just pure chance.

TR

What do you mean I cant be a Christian and a Scientist?

[morninglord.livejournal.com]

the point I was making is that this belief in the likelyness of there being a higher power is the fault in human beings to need a more firm explanation than real tenuous chance.
The human brain doesnt LIKE to think in terms of chance and numbers and stuff. It prefers to think narratively.

Re: Hm

[peppermintrose.livejournal.com]

But isn't that really what all religions have been in the past? Stories to make up what we don't understand? We no longer believe thunder comes from Zeus, although at one time it was inconceivable as to what else but a god could have made it. Christian and science, eh? Just remember knowledge is evil ;)

Re: Hm

[sassamifrass.livejournal.com]

Heh... especially since, as BJ would know after all the Science theory she would have done in 1st year and so on.. nothing is ever fact. Some of the most solid theories 100 years ago are now laughable.. and some we might never disprove, but still be wrong... and of course there's always the argument that we cannot trust any of the perceptions our senses allow us.

...So I can't see any reason to doubt that any possiblity is without probability... ie, a scientist and a philosopher are very alike! And I see no incompatibility between science and religion, only in science with narrow thinking or the same with religion. Any scientist who refuses to accept the possibility that one day their theory may be proved wrong is a very silly person indeed :D

So yeah, I agree with you :P

Re: Hm

[confetti-1.livejournal.com]

"(which if you really read the bible is near impossible to achieve anyway), "

Nope. "And God gave Hi one and only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall have eternal Life."

That's it. Believe.

But that's beside the point.

Re: Hm

[sassamifrass.livejournal.com]

I'm not religious for a chance at "heaven". I don't actually really know whether I believe in a heaven. I believe that God is everything, and that we are all a part of God - God is the life force that we all posses - the abillity to respond to stimuli, to think and to reason and argue. Even dead matter or inorganic chemicals are a part of God to me, because it gives life, and provides it a place to inhabit.

Religion to me is a set of ideas on how one should live one's life in a way that makes you and others happy and treats all equally. AS the Dali Lama said; "Kindness is my religion."

The majority of my beliefs co-incide with the Christian stream of thought, but I believe the Bible is not a direct record of history. It is stories - stories are what people tell each other to explain things - why we should treat each other kindly, why we should care for our parents, and why we should not steal, or kill others. There's things in the Bible I disagree with. Doesn't bother me... because stories change throughout the ages to suit the society, and societies' rules change. Just like fairytales mutate. The Bible simply hasn't undergone that process. I don't believe God cares if a man has a relationship with another man, or if a woman doesn't sacrifice a goat after becoming unclean :P I don't think God built a little sectioned-off Garden and man the first woman from a rib. It's all just stories people tell each other to try and get their heads around the thing we call life. Philosophers are great at this. Philosophy is my best answer to any of the negative things said about atheism or a belief in God(s)/(esses). Jesus was a philosopher. As was Buhdda. And Socrates. People believe different things about these people, but I admire them all for what they achieved.

I believe that God's religion is kindness. And that's the religion I follow... I think he was being a bit mean calling religion a "virus" and "mind-fuck" and other equally derogatory things. A little tolerance would be nice ^^

Re: Hm

[gemfyre.livejournal.com]

Read the post in your journal.

Nah I'm not gonna remove you!! geesh.

Wayne often needs putting in his place *smiles*

*bats eyes innocently*

[peppermintrose.livejournal.com]

See, my problem is I'm either too quiet or else I get revved up and start mouthing off, lol. So I have to make sure I maintain a middle ground sometimes :) As for Wayne and the rest, whether I agree or disagree with what is being said, it is nice to see people have passion about something.

[leemur.livejournal.com]

So many pseudo-scientists refuse to believe in god, because the bible (written by men, then translated for several thousand years) is inaccurate. of course it's inaccurate. so?

The question is not one of accuracy. Granted, if the events in the bible did take place, the inaccuries would accumulate over several thousand years. For that matter, the bible was almost completly rewritten at the Counsel of Nicine in the 4th century AD.

But elements of the bible, like a six day creation time and a inteligent creater are not 'innacuacies'. They are elements that do not fit in with the current scientific viewpoint.

many dont believe in god because science is provable (well duh. thats what science IS)

Science is not about provability. No one has been able to 'prove' evolution (and most likely no one will, given the time span involved), and yet in the scientific community it is considered the best theory. Not the 'correct' theory, but the best one so far. And that is what science is about: finding the laws that govern the operation of the universe.

just because evolution is real, doesnt mean that god is dead, nietze(sp?) ignored

God is dead - Nietzsche

Nietzsche is dead - God

Evolution doesn't by itself, invaladate the possible existence of a higher intelligence. See my next point.

Science and faith are not mutually exclusive

But a scientific viewpoint and faith in an omnisicent, omnipresent god are. You can't mantain a scientific view of the universe and still beleive that god can interefere with that same universe.

The laws of chemistry and bioligy state that if someone is dead for three days, they can't come back. If you beleive that Jesus came back from the dead, then you can no longer believe in a scientific universe.

You can have God, or you can have a scientific universe. You can't have both.

As someone once said "A miracle is something that happens when needed. Is it any less a miracle if it can be explained?"

When a statue weeps blood, that is considered a miracle.

When people bleed from their palms, that is considered a miracle.

But these are not things that happen when needed.

If you are talking about things like gaining some money just when you need it, consider how many times you didn't get money when you needed it. What makes the tenth time, when you do get the money, a miracle?

No, I don't beleive in miracles. It's just human interpretation of a random event.

[gemfyre.livejournal.com]

Science and faith are not mutually exclusive

But a scientific viewpoint and faith in an omnisicent, omnipresent god are. You can't mantain a scientific view of the universe and still beleive that god can interefere with that same universe.

eh, HUH???

*looks at herself*
So even I'm not a "real" scientist and never will be or something?

*agrees to disagree with this statement because she proves it wrong*